This transcript has been automatically generated.

Matthew Facciani: The scary thing is that with AI, they’re sending thousands of these personalized messages that look very reputable.

Josh Sheluk: I’m just glad I’m not looking for a job, still. I’m immune to this one.

Kathryn Toope: Welcome to Barenaked Money, the podcast where we strip down the complex world of finance to its bare essentials with your hosts, Josh Sheluk and Colin White, portfolio managers with Verecan Capital Management Inc.

Josh Sheluk: Welcome to the next episode of Barenaked Money. Colin and Josh coming at you as usual, pulling back the shower curtain, all things finance, and today, misinformation, which we’ve talked about before. We’ve had Matthew Facciani on the podcast before, so we’re happy to have him back. He gave us a lot of good insights last time. It was about six months ago that you’re here, Matthew.

So really excited to have you back. Now, Matthew, he’s an interdisciplinary social scientist with a background in neuroscience and psychology, and he holds a PhD in sociology. He’s also the author of the book Misguided, Where Information Starts, How It Spreads, and What to Do About It. That should give you a lot of insight into what we’re gonna talk about today. And he’s worked as a researcher at the University of Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, a long list of high profile schools there and soon to be starting a position at at Yale as a researcher in the coming weeks.

So, Matthew, thanks so much for joining us again. We’re happy to have you back.

Matthew Facciani: Thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be back.

Josh Sheluk: We talked again about six months ago, but maybe give us kind of a a lay of the land on the misinformation front and tell us what you’re seeing today in terms of what’s hitting the news misinformation wise and and what’s catching your eye that’s out there?

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. So there’s always so much to pay attention to in the misinformation world. I’ve been focusing a lot on artificial intelligence. That’s something that I certainly have been trying to keep track of, how that evolves, how people are using it. I see it as like an extension of some of the issues and worries I had with social media, where people finding influencers and accounts that kind of confirm their beliefs and then following those those news feeds.

And now AI, you can kinda personalize your own chatbot to kind of tell you exactly what to think and and make you feel good, the success of agreeableness that’s talked about. So I’m paying attention to that. And other just trends, I’m finishing up a position at Georgetown looking at faith, trust, and health. So diving into some social media data about how faith based institutions talk about health, how it connects to a variety of things, globally and also in The United States. And yeah, focusing a lot on health trends as well.

That’s kind of been in the direction I’ve been, in for my own research. So there’s so many things to tackle. But yeah. Social media, artificial intelligence, health topics, those are kind of been the main areas I’ve been looking at.

Colin White: They gave us a blog post, which I think has gone live on our website here shortly. That was kind of aimed specifically at, you know, the the financial scams that are out there. Did you wanna steal some of your own thunder and maybe tease some of the, the the the content that’s on there? Because I think some of it was pretty interesting and very pointed. You do you do an amazing job of getting very pointed with something that’s very nebulous and giving some people some concrete steps.

Hell, was there a couple highlights you wanted to hit off of that blog post?

Matthew Facciani: I often think about financial misinformation because it’s so quantifiable, kind of like health misinformation where we see unfortunate health outcomes with financial scams and misinformation. You also can quantify it with, again, some unfortunate numbers here. So there’s been several measurements about just how many billions of dollars are lost from investment scams. It’s hard to quantify, so it’s probably underreported, but it’s definitely in the billions know, just in The United States. And I try to think about, like, how that happens.

And the one thing that stands out to me is how connected this is to broader misinformation trends and how scammers are trying to sell you on playing on your emotions and fear. And I kinda break it down to in the blog post, the three main categories, fake opportunity, fake authority, and fake urgency. You’ve probably gotten scam texts that are similar to those or come across all those three areas where there’s either an opportunity presented, like you can make a ton of money if you click on this link and, you know, give us your information. Or they pretend to be an authority like some sort of government agency that asking for money. And or there’s this urgency that you need to act now or else you’re gonna get in trouble or you’re gonna miss this opportunity.

And it’s also connected to AI because these types of patterns can be so quickly and easily scaled up to look pretty professional now. And we’re at the point where we can make a lot of audio deepfakes where they sound like someone’s calling you from a a reputable place, but it’s really just a computer program. So that’s kinda like the high level, and then I’m happy to talk more about it too.

Colin White: I think what I think you do well is you you kind of, like, you know, the the three different categories. You kinda give buckets that people can put things in and and help identify these things a little bit more quickly. Have you seen I mean, we’ve we’ve heard this this the scare stories that there’s been anecdotal evidence has come of the more advanced scams like faking voices and stuff like that. But I I don’t think again, in my estimation of the the the data that I’ve seen, it doesn’t seem to be really having heavily broken through into the mainstream yet. Is that still a bit science fiction y, or is that stuff just way more mainstream now?

Or is there any really real way to know how how prevalent the the more advanced scams are right now?

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. It’s always evolving. I think it’s hard to measure exactly how much this is infiltrated everyday life. I think we’re gonna get more and more data in the coming years to really see how widespread this is. But the technology’s pretty accessible and scalable, especially with audio.

I think that’s one that’s not talked about enough because everyone wants to talk about video. But really the fake phone calls trick a lot of people because again, it’s just easier and it’s more scalable and it can target people to feel like they need to talk to this person that sounds very convincing that leaves them a voicemail. So that’s really one thing that I think should be paid more attention to is these these fake phone calls in particular. And even the the AI that I find really scary is some of the the text AI has gotten really good at using a chatbot to customize the scam to the individual. I don’t know if either of you have gotten these, but I’ve gotten a few emails from a real company that tells me they have a job offer for me.

And it’s personalized based on if they just did like a Google search of me. And it sounds like a really cool job. It’s like, you know, doctor Facciani, like, we’re really interested in your work and misinformation and trust, we’re gonna hire you at we wanna hire you for like this this company studying that. And it’s like some big health company or healthcare company. And it’s like several paragraphs, really well written text.

And it’s from a chatbot that that searched me and was able to make a profile and a fake job for me. And I kinda played around with this particular scam to see how it unfolded. So So it’s it was from this company. It was a real company. But the when you click on the email, it’s just like one letter off from what the actual company’s email looks like.

So it’s very close. And then when I responded to it, I’m you know, I was kinda playing along. I’m like, which I I shouldn’t have because once you respond to any of these things, it just triggers an automatic more emails in their system. And I got more emails to you know, more scam emails came after that. But I wanna see what was what happened.

So I responded and I was like, yeah, this how this offer sounds great. Like, what’s the next step? And the next step was I needed to send my resume through this service where they needed to format it for me. I think it was only a fee of 29.99 to format my my resume. But that was going to really help my chances of getting this amazing job.

And then I’m like, okay, that’s that’s that’s the angle. So I thought that was interesting that it was immediately personalized and then right to, okay, you just need to pay for this service to get the job. The personalization is something that I think is really scary. Because when I first saw that email, I was like, wow, this sounds cool. Like, this is a job that I would really wanna do when I was on the market.

So I was like, in a vulnerable place looking for that type of information. And thankfully,

Colin White: I’d,

Matthew Facciani: you know, a skeptical person, and I’d always double check everything. And I’m like, okay, the the email’s a little off, and this sounds too good to be true. And then there’s no job posted. And okay, this all these red flags came across once I thought about it for a few seconds. But that initial emotional hook is something that is is common with a lot of these scams.

Colin White: Like an awful small ass. That must have been one of those incremental ones. If they get you for 29, the next factor is gonna be for a 129, then the one after that was for 5,000. Like, it must because there’s a lot of work to go through to get $29, Lydia.

Matthew Facciani: Well, that’s that’s the that’s the scary thing is that with AI, that is all automated at scale. So they’re sending thousands of these personalized messages probably. And if they have a small ask of people that, you know, only a couple of them because they can get so many emails out at scale that look very reputable. I imagine that’s their their approach is like, by asking for less money, maybe they get more people. I don’t know.

I’d be curious. Some of the financial financials of that, but it’s just so easy to make a really well written scam email now. Whereas even a few years ago, it was it was much more difficult.

Colin White: Gosh. Did you get this as scared as I did when you said he clicked on the email address to see what would happen? Like, did did we because I’m pretty sure other guests we’ve had on this podcast would suggest that probably clicking on that email wasn’t the right move either. Right?

Josh Sheluk: Yeah. Well, I I’m just glad I’m not looking for a job still. I’m immune to this one. It’s like right to the delete folder. But, yeah, it’s funny you mentioned the AI based voice calls because we actually have had a couple of those come through either personal cell phones of our team members or directly through to the office.

And one of our colleagues actually said like, this sounds kind of fishy. He asked the speaker, he said, are you an AI? And whatever you wanna call it on the other end said, Yes, I’m an AI. Thank you for noticing. It is happening out there for sure.

I wouldn’t say frequent. It’s not as frequent as the emails that we’re getting bombarded with that are are scams of some some sort, but definitely happening. But again, you you do a really good job of identifying, I think, what is common in all of these these scams, the fake opportunity, fake authority, fake urgency. But on that that blog post that you’ve written, you’ve also done a really good job of identifying the habits that are that you can practice. They’re, you know, fairly low hanging fruit that you can practice to try to avoid becoming a victim of these scams.

So why don’t you take us through that?

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. So this came out of some of the research I was doing on what tools are available for people and what kind of habits can you use using these tools. So I guess to to focus more on what you can do as a habit before you even practice any using these tools, I think the first thing for any type of misinformation, the first thing you should always do is to pause and reflect and take a breath. That’s it sounds simple, but, like, I think that’s so critical because, again, so many of these these scam artists or charlatans or anyone in these types of spaces that wanna take advantage of other people, they try to act on that urgency and that emotion when you you get that initial like, uh-oh, like I’m in trouble or this is an opportunity I can’t, I can’t afford to miss. And once you kind of take a step back and breathe, your brain can focus on some of the red flags you might have missed initially.

And I think that’s just a good habit to take for anything we encounter online, taking a moment to pause and reflect and remember that that signal of emotion can be this really useful signal to to pause. And then once you’re reflecting on that, I think if you really wanna verify it, like, you can find a variety of tools online to help you verify if something’s true or not. There’s a lot of official websites that you can check if this person is trying to represent themself as a financial professional. You can see if they are on those websites. You can try to look if other people are talking about the particular scam that’s presented to you.

So a lot of times, people have already found this scam on Reddit or other forums, and it’s the same text, it’s the same format. And you could be like, oh, this is something that that other people have experienced. I I got another one of these personalized emails from a supposed book club. So I’m just sharing the the personal scams that I got. So I I wrote my book.

You know, I’m all excited to write my book. It’s really cool. And I I got an email saying, we’re this book club and we want you to speak to our group. And I’m like, oh, that sounds cool. Like, it’s kinda weird that this this book club from, I think it was like New Jersey, asked me to speak to the group.

It was virtual. But I’m like, oh, that’s that sounds cool. It’s flattering. And again, that’s the emotional appeal. And I’m like, wait, something’s kinda strange.

So I I googled it a little bit and then I saw that many other authors would get this same similar email that basically they ask for money to present at the group. And again, I I played along with it where I do I do respond, which I wouldn’t recommend. You’re right, Collin. You shouldn’t you shouldn’t click on it. You shouldn’t respond.

I don’t click on any links that I get, so that’s something I would never do. But I do click on the email, and I do check on what the email address says and if it looks legitimate. Because I don’t think those are ways that at least those are lower risk than certainly never click on any hyperlinks. That’s always dangerous. But I took the risk for educational purposes to see what it was like.

So I responded, and sure enough, they were asking for money to present to their group and talk about my book. And that was a common a common scam is to find new authors that have a public email somewhere, and then and then they use an actual real meetup book club. So similar to the other job scam, they use a real company, they use a real meetup group, just steal their name, and just say, hey, we wanna invite you to this, but they’re not affiliated with it at all. So that’s another thing to look out for again is is with AI, I’m sure that was all automated and they were able to personalize and send a very well written, nice, engaging email directly to me. And again, trying to play on flattery, like, oh, you know, we loved your book.

It’d be so great if you spoke to us. And I’m curious. I’m like, okay, what’s this game gonna look like? So I responded like, oh, that’s so great. Can you tell me more about what this would be?

And it’s I think it was like several $100 to speak virtually to a book club, which is not not something that is typical.

Colin White: I don’t need to be rude. Does that mean they just don’t understand the the economics of being an author? Yeah. I mean Free Yeah. Books I might sell by talking to your book club is not worth a few $100 you’ve asked me to be there?

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. I mean, I think I I think they’re just preying on yeah. Don’t know. I don’t I don’t know again if it’s like how many people actually click on these and actually send the money. It’s so hard to measure because with scams, another big thing is like people don’t like admitting when they get scammed.

It’s embarrassing. You don’t necessarily wanna report that. And if I like, you can report it and it’d be helpful to protect other people, but I think a lot of people would not wanna share that, oh man, I just gave someone, you know, $300 because they said they liked my book. But I’d be curious like how often that does work. It’s it’s an interesting question.

Colin White: This is the fact that this is so persistent. Like if this wasn’t successful, it wouldn’t be as pervasive as it is because a day doesn’t go go by that I don’t get an email telling me how wonderful I am. I’ve been voted the the top technology leader and

Matthew Facciani: and Nice.

Colin White: You know, I’ve been voted the the top ESG, you know, financial guy. There’s lots of things that I have been, you know, worked on. And and they they will comb the website and and public information to to personalize it for sure. So Yeah. I I I’ve just never had the spare time to engage with them to figure out where it went.

I’ve had the same, you know, curiosity that you do. So thanks for taking one for science and actually clicking on a few of these things to see where it goes.

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. I mean, I guess I’ve been doing that. Yeah. I always connected to my work and my background, so I am curious. I remember one of the first times I did this also was a conference scam.

So this is an academic specific scam, but maybe for other people too. It was just for an academic conference where they invite you to speak at a conference. So there’s this whole other predatory journal area within academia where a lot of times, again, you have a public email and they’ll scrape your information and be like, hey, you published this article. We think you should publish an article in our journal, which is not a reputable journal. It’s usually just something that’s made up, and you have to pay money to publish.

And then there’s also conferences where, hey, we really love your work as a researcher. Can you come present at this conference in usually somewhere abroad and it’s a ton of money to register. What’s interesting about those conferences is I’ve heard sometimes they’re actually real conferences. They’re just like very predatory and not very reputable. But you can actually show up at like this random hotel in Rome, and there’ll be like three people there for the conference.

So I don’t know if there’s similar things in the financial world.

Colin White: Yes. But it is it’s funny like because I I don’t think that some of them may not even start up being scammed but at the end of the day because all a lot of the conferences in the financial world are run typically by media company. So they create a they create a conference and they sell advertising and then they try to attract speakers, which then tries to attract an audience. They’re gonna spend their time where the money is which is attracting the sponsorship. You know?

So I think there might be a fine line between what’s a scam and and what’s real based on the outcome, because there are there are firms that would, you know, absolutely cash the check for people who are willing to write them a check and may or may not be in a position to deliver something that’s that’s wholesome. There’s a few LinkedIn approaches where, you know, for $1,250, you can be on the cover of a magazine, and we’re gonna interview you and you can post it on LinkedIn. But is it a scam? It is what it is. I guess, I think sometimes the line gets a little bit blurry maybe.

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good point. And it kind of reminds me too when I was looking to publish my book. I didn’t know anything about publishing.

I was even looking into, like, self publishing. And there’s, like, classes and courses and workshops where, like, they teach you how to self publish. And again, I didn’t know anything about this. So I was just googling it and searching it. I’m like, man, like, this is like several thousand dollars to publish to basically self publish a book.

And I was just reading some of the reviews and it’s like, yeah, it’s real. They help you, you know, through the process. They’re real people that basically tell you what you can find on Google and then you self publish it. So, like, is that a scam or just like a, you know, not a good use of your money?

Colin White: Yeah. No. Maybe I’m it’s it’s just unclear from a distance. Yeah.

Josh Sheluk: Though there are, I guess, a lot of publicly available verifiable resources that you can go to, Matthew, to to verify whatever channel you’re in, I suppose. I guess it is sometimes hard for people to know what that resource is. Like, for example, some of the the scams that I’ve come across our clients’ desks or email addresses, it’s from AI investment company ABC just to make something up. And you go to the website and they have all these badges like, Oh, you’re registered with this. You’re registered with that.

So I think it’s sometimes hard for people to know actually where to verify or validate some of this stuff. So what do you recommend if it’s like a realm of the world where people are somewhat unfamiliar with the the sort of the right database or regal regulatory body to look in, what other tools can somebody use, or or what do they do to find the right the right way to validate it?

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. I think it’s the same process as fact checking anything you see on social media with this concept of lateral reading. So instead of looking vertically within the website that you’re trying to debunk and you say, oh, know, they worked with Google or something. They they look like they might be reputable and they have a really flashy website. Again, websites are really easy to make very professionally looking now with artificial intelligence.

So instead of trying to debunk them with on their fancy website, I I think again, opening up other tabs and seeing what other people have talked about this particular company that I find reputable and trustworthy. Like, are they mentioned at all on any other forums or companies or LinkedIn? Like, do reputable people that you know talk about this at all? And it a lot of times, they don’t. So thankfully, it’s still to the point where it’s when we see these fake companies, these scams, it’s very quick where a a little bit of googling and looking at independent resources, you will see that there isn’t a digital footprint beyond that website.

And that’s always a red flag. And I I mentioned some of the tools that you can check the actual website itself. So you can see like how long has this website been around. Did it used to be called something else? You could use the the way back machine and see like, are other people talking about this?

And does it appear anywhere? I think all of those things can be really quick first steps. Using reverse image search is always one of my favorite tools for a first step to like, where did this first where did this image first come from? If they’re, you know, trying to advertise a product or something. And sometimes a lot of companies, another scam, is they’ll just rip off other companies and try to sell you something.

So this is a popular thing that I’ve seen on social media, is there will be some trending product like a I think I saw one that was like a pilates machine or something. And it was very popular. It was like a at home pilates machine. And again, like I just I’m so curious about these things. So I’m always trying to see like what what their angle is.

And the website just copied an existing company, a pilates machine or or basically it was like an exercise company. They just stole their website and changed like one letter from the URL. And basically it’s just all a scam where you can try, you think you’re buying something that looks like a reputable website, but it’s not. So definitely make sure you the URL correct. So even if it looks right, make sure that it’s the same exact web page as what other people have already documented as being reputable and verifiable.

Josh Sheluk: And all all of these these resources are gonna be in that blog post. So I’ll I’ll direct everyone to to the blog post to to collect some of this stuff. And so this is gonna be on your misguided blog, will it, Matthew? Well, as other

Matthew Facciani: was gonna I was gonna post it for you guys first, and then I can I can upload it on mine after? But it it’s based off another larger, broader post on digital tools that I think are useful. I just I tailored this one for financial, information and financial scams.

Colin White: So, Matthew, like, a lot of your work going back to your misguided was the idea of the the tie of identity to susceptibility to receiving information. And I’m really fascinated although Josh was way more successful than I am trying out your tool, by this new tool that you’ve you’ve authored to help people explore. Know, and correct me if I’m wrong. I mean, this seems to be enough for someone to help explore what what their what their expressed identity is and and and maybe educate them a little bit on, where their their blind spots might be. Am I am I overstating, You know, the what was what what the the aim of the the tool is?

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. The aim is to reflect on where your potential areas of bias from what your identity map looks like. So just to to recap kind of, I think we talked about this a little bit last time, the concept of how identity even biases us in the first place. So we have thousands of identities and some of them are more important than others. But basically, we’re motivated to act in ways that are consistent with these identities that are important to us.

And many times, it’s neutral or good. So again, if we’re a student or a parent, we might have roles and meetings associated with those identities like doing well in school or taking care of our children. And then we might also have identities such as related to politics. And when it gets to politics, sometimes we’re motivated to protect our political team so much that we’re not processing information in the most objective way. Where it gets really interesting and where this is, where that tool focuses on, and where some of my research has dove into, is trying to see, okay, where do these identities intersect with other identities?

Because any time we have identities that are overlapping and they’re shared meanings, it creates additional vulnerability to believing misinformation. And the reason this is the case is because these identities, when they share meanings with each other, they amplify the effect they have on us. And to take an extreme example, let’s say we have only a few identities that we really care about. Let’s say our political identity, our religious identity, and our friend identity. And let’s say they 100% overlap in this extreme example.

So you’re deriving all of your self esteem from a handful of meanings that overlap with your politics or religion, and all of your friends share the same beliefs as you. They all go to your same church. So anytime you see a piece of information that challenges one of those values or meanings, that feels like an attack on your overall sense of self. 100 of your self esteem is being derived from this narrow lens of meanings. And when you see information that challenges it, it attacks all of you.

Another way, a more balanced way is, let’s say you have those same identities but they’re not overlapping so much. So maybe you have friends of different backgrounds, your politics and religion don’t share 100% of the meanings, and you know, maybe you have other identities too. So now, anytime you encounter information that challenges, let’s say your political identity, it’s not attacking your overall sense of self. You’re not so motivated to protect your identity and your source of self esteem because it’s only a small percentage of your overall sense of self. So you’re diversifying your identity map and you’re diversifying your sources of self esteem.

So if any source of self esteem is challenged, you’re better able to absorb that and process it more objectively and more in a more balanced way. So I made this tool that helps you visualize that where you drag and drop all of your identities and you have these circles that can overlap with each other and you can visualize, okay, it’s like, do my politics and religion again as examples, are they overlapping with each other? And is that connected to some other interests that I have? If we see all of these identity circles overlapping with each other, I made this tool where the number will go down, so your complexity score decreases, which makes you more vulnerable to potential bias. And this is the way to reflect on it.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to believe all misinformation that encounters those circles, but it’s something just to be mindful of. And that’s that’s what I I tried to help visualize because I wanted to make a more interactive tool instead of just having people actually draw on a piece of paper or just think about it. I wanted to actually it so you can just do it on your computer and then kind of see it visually.

Colin White: Was it that Josh failed?

Josh Sheluk: Well, yeah, I was hoping that it was a score out of 50. Let me just put it that way. It turns out it was out of a 100. So

Matthew Facciani: That’s alright.

Josh Sheluk: Yeah. But I think what it did do is it it just kinda opens up your eyes a little bit as to where the overlaps can be. Yeah. Like, on the one hand, I I feel like I have diverse groups, but while they’re distinct groups, they may not be diverse. Think is what it’s coming down to.

And it’s like, if we bring this back to the investment world, Colin and I will think about diversifying investment portfolio. You could have three different investments in your portfolio, but if all three of them invest in US technology stocks, then you’re exposed to the same risks. So I think about it a lot in that way. Although one of the things that you’ve written about recently, which I found interesting is that even having one person in your network that is distinct or differentiated in terms of process of thought can help shield you from being susceptible misinformation.

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. Yeah. And I really like your financial analogy there. And I’m gonna start thinking about it in these economic terms because I think that’s a cool way to think about it because it actually kind of connects to this one too. So, yes.

So my research has found that just having one person in your inner circle that you discuss important matters with that you think is a close personal tie. Having just one person significantly reduces susceptibility to misinformation and political bias. And I made another tool where it can map that out, and you can list the people you discuss important matters with, and list if they differ in viewpoint on politics or religion. Again, as a guideline, as a way to think, is this a vulnerability I have where everyone that I know thinks the same way, and I have a part on social media feeds, is this being amplified by certain social media feeds as well? So again, it gives you a score at the end of how diverse your networks are.

So I have a score for both how diverse your identities are and how diverse your networks are. It’s just kind of a guideline to see, okay, are there potential areas of risk here? And I I guess if I were to correct me if this is if it makes sense or not. But the one person different, I wonder if that’s similar to, like, having one distinct asset class different in your portfolio. Like a 100% stocks versus, you know, even 80% stocks and 20% bonds.

I imagine it would be a lot safer than a 100% stocks. Does that does that make any sense?

Colin White: The difference there is that on the financial world, you can quantify the percentage rates very easily. And I think that ideas are are less lend themselves to being quantifiable. Yep. And it may be, you know, in context, like in a particular moment in time as to which of the ideas that are in your rattling around in your head are gonna become predominant. But I think there is a lot of parallels.

I mean, Josh and I have heard many clients or many prospects more prospects talk about, yeah, really diversified. What do you mean? It’s like, well, I’ve got Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Doge. I’d be all like, yes. I have I have all of the the cryptocurrencies.

Okay. Well, that’s that’s one version of me diversified, I guess. But, again, it doesn’t really pass the sniff test from a true investment perspective. So I think diversification, there is, you know, significant overlap between the the financial world and what you’re describing. I think what you’re describing is perhaps more important in many ways, but lends itself less to being as quantifiable.

Does one outside opinion help? Well, it depends how much you pay pay attention to that one outside opinion, I guess. Right? I think it’s more reliable to say that I’ve got two or three or four different groups within my group. And, you know, maybe we’re all Celtics fans, but one is pro union and one is one political stripe, one is one religious stripe, you know, that that kind of thing.

But I’m not I I’m I’m afraid of your test now because I didn’t get to take it yet. I’m not sure I’ve got enough information to properly populate it to. I need to be Jock. That’s for sure.

Josh Sheluk: Yeah. It’s funny. I had somebody say to me earlier this year when I was preaching diversification to them. I said, I am diversified. I have gold and silver stock in my portfolio.

That’s the best example of it. When you compare it to what you’re talking about, Matthew, it’s like, I’m diversified. I have this group and this group. But if they have all the same political religious beliefs, if they work in the same industry, all of a sudden you find that things are a lot more correlated as we would say in the finance world than you would think otherwise.

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. And you can see this within ideology, especially within like the podcast space. I find it really interesting. There’s people that claim that they’re maybe have different schools of thought, they all interview each other and they’re all talking about very similar topics in the same way. So even though they’re all separate podcasts and separate people, from an ideological standpoint, they’re very similar and they approach the world in very similar ways.

So it’d be like, yeah, listen to five different podcasts. I’m diversified. But are they all saying the same thing and and slightly different framing? I would say then that’s not much diversification.

Colin White: Well, I think that that goes to the purpose of many of the podcasts because if they’ve been monetized, you know, they’re trying to get an audience. Right. So there’s certain messages that, you know, lend themselves more to gaining an audience and as somebody who has a contrary opinion sometimes. Sometimes that’s lonely. And if you’re trying to be popular to make a living, yeah, there’s some practice to go along with the herd and talk about all the same things.

Yeah. So there’s some external forces there for sure. What are the curiosity. Do you know how many tens or hundreds or thousands or millions of people have, you know, partaken of the test? Like, is it you do you know, have any sense for for how many people have gone into play with it?

Matthew Facciani: The ones that I just made, I’m not sure yet. I have a I should look at some metrics there. I I have a form for people to share feedback with. I I didn’t want to collect any data on people that took the test. So I don’t actually get any metrics on whoever takes it.

I can see like how many website visits I get, but I wanted to be careful about not collecting any data that people didn’t want to share. But yeah, it’d be interesting to study and that’s something I might want to try to do is actually use this as a tool to see if it can have an impact on people. Yeah, mean, say probably a few 100 so far. It’s still in the early phases and it’s something I’m still playing with this whole idea of like making tools. One of my next things I’m working on is using probably some type of AI chatbot interface to determine if you should respond to a comment online or not.

So that’s the new thing I’m working on is like basically

Josh Sheluk: The answer is no. You should just don’t. I know.

Matthew Facciani: You’re right. You’re right. That’s

Colin White: Well, it it depends on what you’re trying to get done. If you just wanna create an endless gird of banality back and forth in order to promote the the channel because of the activity, absolutely. You know, get you know, stick your chatbot on somebody else’s chatbot and let them have at it.

Matthew Facciani: And that yeah. It’s funny. You could see that sometimes now on social media. There’s so many bots, and sometimes the bots respond to other bots. And you’re just, like, watching this, and it’s just I don’t know if you’ve heard about the dead Internet theory where eventually most of the Internet’s just gonna be automated bots talking to each other.

And it’s like, ah, that that that theory actually is becoming more true than unfortunately we might have thought a few years ago.

Colin White: I I think you’re going down a really neat road and and trying to take some of the concepts that you’re you’ve you’ve written about that are very impactful and turning into something that’s, you know, a different way of consuming it. That might be a little bit more approachable, and I get it. You don’t wanna gather information. But, man, if you gather that information, you could probably do some even cooler stuff. And it doesn’t have to be icky.

Like, it’s not like you need to, you know, keep personal information, like have a have a name and a social insurance number attached to each profile. But I would think that as a researcher, there’s probably part of you that goes, oh, data. And, you know, cap bring it in this way. There’s there’s probably some insights that could be gained that would improve the tool. You know, I think that, you know, the spark trying to ignite a flame.

I mean, people are just overwhelmed with misinformation right now, and you’re out there fighting the fight to try to give people who defense against which is admirable, which is why we’re fans. But making it approachable, make it entertaining, make it the gamification of protecting yourself from misinformation is is really what you’re you’re trying to get done. Right?

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that was what I was working at when I was at Notre Dame. We were making media literacy games, and I was help making some of those and testing those. And it’s cool to see these these impacts of the games we made and that other people made.

I mean, anytime you can make something more engaging and more fun, it’s gonna help with education. So again, that’s one of the cool things about AI and technology is we can scale up some of the good information and good skills that we can teach people in this noisy information ecosystem. So, yeah, I hope to do that more. You know, just I don’t exactly know what it’s gonna look like. It’s mostly just a hobby of mine is making these tools and then iterating them and making them more interactive.

But yeah, the goal, like, I talk a lot about this concept of like critical ignoring too. That’s another big part of it is being mindful of what you pay attention to online and not being distracted by all this nonsense. So that would be a part of this chatbot of like, should I even pay attention to this or not? And then ideally kind of have like a, some type of dashboard or something where you can track, like, how much you’re being distracted by various things and and then have kind of a gamification part of, like, I saved the this many hours this this week by not being distracted by nonsense. And then hopefully make that a positive thing instead of, you know hopefully, it will be make you reflect on, like, how much time am I wasting doom scrolling or, you know, being manipulated by these these conflict entrepreneurs?

Colin White: Well, Matt, I wanna give you this this stretch question because, you know, there there there’s one step you need to take care in order to really make this something. What’s the business case? Because you’re treating it as a hobby and, you know, you’re you got the white hat on and you’re trying to do the good thing. You know? But the the what you’re fighting against is a for profit engine.

Yeah. And, you know, there there needs to be, at some point, some kind of a business case to fight the fight. Like, I’ve watched some of the YouTube channels spring up where they they take down the scammers and they turn it into a whole entertaining thing where they’ve got, you know, this, you know, fighting the bad guys and they shoot video and they make it sensational and they’re making a living off of fighting the bad guys. And I think that, you know, at some point for for what you’re talking about and all this wonderfulness, it’s okay. What what do we what do you piggyback on with it?

Like, what what kind of studying can this be a value add that generates some kind of an economic return so that it’s supported and then therefore is is available to everybody. And, again, that that’s maybe two or three iterations or four iterations or a lifetime away from where you are, but that would be kinda cool if you could turn this into something behind a paywall or a service of people, you know, somehow was supported financially. Then you’re off the races, and you can really put some resources into it to get out and protect the world.

Josh Sheluk: Well, I got your half baked product idea actually here, Colin. So

Colin White: Do you have?

Josh Sheluk: Yeah. So one of the challenges I think that we all have, the reason why our our sort of identity scores are so low is because we naturally gravitate towards people that think and act and behave the same way that we do. So we need a Tinder for a contrarian. Like you need a contrarian friend where you can you can put your criteria in and you can find somebody that’s opposite of you and and you can match on Tinder. Then anytime you need a dissenting opinion, you just talk to your contrarian friend.

Colin White: I don’t know. I’m sorry about my head my headset went out with what Josh was just saying right there, I didn’t even hear Shauna. So, like, if you need to to take Josh to task for for what he’s saying on the podcast now, I was not part of it.

Matthew Facciani: I mean, I think it’s a it’s a cool idea, and there’s there’s some research that connects to that where they had this study a few years ago. They matched digital pen pals, and they had them first talk about non political things, like their favorite sports or music. And then they prompted them to start talking about politics. And what was interesting is those who bonded over a shared interest first were then less polarized when they were talking about politics even if they disagreed. So it’s not as outlandish of an idea to match like that.

The guardrails would be really important. Like, the key thing is it has to be moderated in a way where it’s productive dialogue and you’re just trolling people. But I it’s actually not that that outlandish of an idea.

Colin White: Yeah. I wanna go back to Josh. How much am I gonna pay to download this app to find somebody to argue with? Because

Josh Sheluk: What do pay what do you pay for Tinder today, Colin?

Colin White: I would know.

Josh Sheluk: Good answer. Good answer. But I you know, I that’s why I said it’s half baked, but it it is kind of like an extension of the the Reddit changed my mind threads that you see out there. Right? So it’s hard.

It’s it’s sometimes, I think, hard for people to naturally find and bump into somebody that has that’s gonna join their inner circle that has a contrarian point of view. So we almost need to force it in some ways.

Matthew Facciani: And I think

Colin White: Mandate it.

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. I I think what would be cool is the in person spaces of that. And I know a few people that are trying to go into this space kind of reclaiming analog activities. And some of that is like hosting dinner parties with strangers. So and there’s people that pay money to sign up for these types of things.

And I think it speaks to that need of like, we’ve become so polarized and so online that we kind of have to go back to where we were. It’s like, oh, it’s actually kinda nice to go out and meet people and talk to people that might think a little differently than me. Especially again, if there’s some guardrails of of moderation there. And it can actually be a very pleasant experience.

Colin White: Well, in Halifax, we’ve got Nelly’s, and it does have bouncers. So I guess it’s it comes with guardrails and everything. And if your conversation gets too big, you’ll get thrown out. So

Josh Sheluk: Well, that’s awesome, Matthew. We again appreciate you for joining us so much and another set of great insights here most definitely. Now, Misguided your book, where do we find it today?

Matthew Facciani: You can find it at the major book retailers, Amazon, you can buy it directly from the Columbia Press website, Barnes and Noble. Can bookshop.org is a good one that supports local bookshops, bookstores. You can also, if you’re at a local library, you can request it for them to get for you. I’m big fan of public libraries. I did some book talks when it first came out.

I’ve slowed down a little bit, but I’m probably gonna start back up again this this summer. Have my next book talk is actually in it’s my first international talk. I’m going to Copenhagen. Copenhagen Business School. I’ll talk about my book there, so that’ll be fun.

Colin White: Amazing. For record, Halifax is closer. Just saying.

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. Well, yeah. Great too.

Colin White: Yeah. Hey, Matthew. What about that if you wanna plug where the people can take that test to see if they can beat Josh’s score of 45.

Matthew Facciani: Yes. If you could try to beat Josh’s score, they are both on my website. I can show you guys the links. They’re on my substack, which is just called misguided, the same as my book and my podcast. And yeah, it’s all hosted on my newsletter and my website.

I try to keep everything, all my links together as you navigate the different tools. And I think I’m gonna try to create my own website that has all of these tools in one space. So this is another thing I’m again, just just thinking about. And it might be some play on critical ignoring, like critignore.com or something like that, just to kind of put it all in one space. So I’ll share all that with you guys as well.

Josh Sheluk: Amazing. And we’ll be sure to link those in the show notes as I mentioned before, and you had a bit of a plug there, but I’ll just plug it again. The Substack, Misguided, subscribe to that and the podcast as well, which is available on Spotify for sure. I imagine wherever you get your podcasts. So there’s been some good recent guests on there definitely as well.

So so yeah, thanks again for joining us. You’re definitely you got your your hand right on the shower curtain with us ripping it off and and showing showing everybody what’s behind it. We appreciate it.

Matthew Facciani: Yeah. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. It’s great. Great to speak to you guys again.

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