Prediction Markets: Why They’re Gambling, Not Investing

Hosts Josh Sheluk and Colin White of Verecan Capital Management discuss the rise of prediction markets (e.g., Polymarket, Kalshi, and a planned Wealthsimple product in Canada) following regulatory approvals, and argue people should avoid them. They frame the episode as a “draft of bad ideas,” led by the claim that participants will likely lose money, citing research on 1.4 million users and $20B in transactions showing profits are concentrated (1% earning ~80% of profits) and losses can be extreme (0.1% accounting for 43% of losses). They warn prediction markets are prone to manipulation and insider-information advantages, give examples of odds moving ahead of events, and criticize regulators’ rationale that people will do it anyway. They emphasize these products blur investing and gambling, siphon money from long-term investing, and are gamified to drive activity.

00:00 Wild Prediction Market Hook
00:12 Show Intro and Today’s Topic
00:55 Why Prediction Markets Are Exploding
03:17 Regulators Open the Door
05:02 Draft Pick One You’ll Lose Money
08:52 Draft Pick Two Manipulation and Insider Info
14:13 Draft Pick Three Gambling Not Investing
17:07 Money Drain and Social Harm
19:02 You Don’t Need This to Hedge
22:03 Gamification and Worst Case Losses
23:32 What Prediction Markets Actually Are
27:34 Where This Is Headed and Final Thoughts
30:40 Sponsor Message and Contact Info
31:22 Legal Disclaimer and Wrap Up

This transcript has been automatically generated.

Colin White: The member of the Navy SEAL team that took out the president of Venezuela has just been arrested because he placed a bet that it was gonna happen. Like, how many circles of stupid did that have to cross to think he was gonna get away with it?

Kathryn Toope: Welcome to Barenaked Money, the podcast where we strip down the complex world of finance to its bare essentials with your hosts, Josh Sheluk and Colin White, portfolio managers with Verecan Capital Management Inc.

Colin White: Welcome to the next edition of Barenaked Money. Josh and Colin coming at you with an exciting, scintillating, sexy topic involving betting and the ability to get rich quick. And we’re gonna we’re gonna get into it as it’s become topical. So, Josh, I’m so excited for today. I can hardly contain my emotion right now.

Where are you gonna take us?

Josh Sheluk: Topic we’ve been waiting to discuss for I think the better part of the year.

Colin White: Yeah,

Josh Sheluk: true. And prediction markets. That’s what we’re talking about today. Prediction markets like poly market, Kelshi, like the soon to be launched Wealthsimple prediction market, I believe. And it’s funny because in our 2026 prediction podcast, we predicted that prediction markets would become a big thing this year.

And they are blowing up and they are launching in Canada. So I think that that has come to be true, but we’re here to blow up the idea that participating in these markets is a good idea. And what we’re gonna do today is a bit of a draft, a draft of bad ideas. The worst idea is gonna go as the first overall pick in our draft. We’re gonna go back and forth, picking the worst possible reasons for participating in these prediction markets, or said a different way, the things that would most deter you participating in these.

Does that make sense?

Colin White: I went a little bit different direction, but yeah, no, I think we can, I can line up with that for sure? But listen, I wanna make sure you take credit for this. I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, this was your prediction. I I don’t remember making this prediction. I may have agreed with you when you made the prediction, but I wanna make sure that credit lands where it belongs.

So that that that’s you. Right?

Josh Sheluk: I’ve been seeing this stuff hit the radar for the better part of a year. I think it it it first got really big as a big part of my radar, a big blip on my radar in early twenty twenty five, actually, because there was an advertisement at the Super Bowl or Kelshi at the time. So I was like, okay, that’s something because that’s not a cheap ad spot. So this is gonna snowball a little bit and sure enough it has. So yeah, I’ve been following this for a while.

And when we had the election, the last US election, was popping up odds on Polymarket for the team on our investment committee, showing them what the so called market is saying about this stuff. So it’s been on my radar for a while, but I think it’s finally reached critical math where this is pervasive in the day to day of common people.

Colin White: Yeah. And I guess before we get into the official draft, maybe as a preamble, if you will. I mean, I think most recently what’s made this, I don’t know, blow up the most or get this close to mainstream as possible is the regulatory approvals that have allowed it to enter ostensibly day to day banking and day to day investing accounts regulated entities. It’s been anointed as it’s an okay thing to do. Now I had the opportunity actually twice in the last or I was there once, but I wasn’t there once.

Shana attended a conference where Andrew Krieger spoke on behalf of Siro were the ones that provided the initial approval to all simple to offer limited predictive markets and one of his rationales was people are going to do it, so we just want to help them do it better, which is one of those logical fallacies that really annoy me. But, you know, some of the rationale behind it. So I had an opportunity to speak with one of the members of one of the provincial regulators who has a voice with the CSA. And I said, is anybody in the room telling you you guys are stupid? And he gave the political answer first.

So like, well, you know, this, that, and the balance of probabilities. I said, no. No. But is somebody telling you this is a bad idea? And he goes, I think it’s a bad idea, but that’s not the information we’re being given.

So we’re moving with the information that’s being provided to us. So again, think it’s one of these situations where things are being lobbied in a certain direction and things are being presented in a certain light. And I think it’s wrong. And I think you agree. And we’re gonna go step by step through some form of a draft and make our points.

So I hope you’re planning on going first in the draft just to show me how it’s done.

Josh Sheluk: Well, the first overall pick is such an easy one. The number one reason you should not participate in these markets is because you’re going to lose money. And I think we have enough evidence now to say that that’s the case.

Colin White: Mic drop.

Josh Sheluk: We actually have, yeah, we actually have studies that have been done like real working white papers, academic papers that have been done on this stuff. And the one that I was looking at recently, so you kind of question, well, how robust is the sample size? It’s robust. We’re talking about 1,400,000 users and $20,000,000,000 worth of transactions that it looked at. And what it found that, unless you’re lucky, unless you’re very lucky or extremely good at forecasting, your expectation of making money is zero.

And to be very good at forecasting, just to be clear about what that means, they said that 1% of users on these platforms make about 80% of the profits. So, you have to be in the elite 1% and have a very specific set of behaviors to actually make money at these things. So, this is not investing and I think this is the biggest gripe that that you and I are going to agree on. This is not investing. It shouldn’t even be regulated by investment regulatory bodies.

This is gambling. Different regulatory body, different frame of mind.

Colin White: Josh, you make the point that, you know, less than 1% of people are really exceptional at this, but 75% of people think they’re above average drivers. So you ask somebody if they think they’re smart, they’re more than 1% of the population is going to say they’re really good at this. And that’s what the profit making entities are leaning into for that. But no, you’re absolutely right. Think that the steps that the regulators have taken to cause this to be approved on the platforms they’ve approved it on make it worse.

They make it seem more legitimate. They make it seem like this is actually a financial thing because correct me if I’m wrong, I believe that the release I saw, they’ve restricted it to financial indicators and binary things like yes, no. So you’re allowed to wage your money on a future financial outcome or financial data release. By doing that, you make it sound smart. It’s like betting on the Bank of Canada.

Well, everybody talks about what the Bank of Canada is gonna do. I get to bet on that too. That’s great. You know, that’s giving the average consumer a chance to take part in the markets like the rich people do and all the other hooey that goes with it. So it has the it’s been given a fake aura of legitimacy like it’s a real financial instrument when it just isn’t.

But I wanna go back to the white paper, Josh, and I’m gonna put you on the spot because again, these are not rehearsed or scripted podcasts for everybody’s edification. The the losses, So who are the winners? Like that 1% of the people, are they the winners, or is the house the winner?

Josh Sheluk: No. So this this white paper specifically that I’m referring to looked at polymarket, which

Colin White: Oh, okay.

Josh Sheluk: Doesn’t exactly have a house. So there are real winners who are individuals and not the house in this situation. But again, don’t know. I couldn’t pick them out of a police lineup, but there people that are a bit more sophisticated, probably have a little bit of heft behind them in terms of predicting these things. And again, there’s specific, I don’t wanna get into all the specific behaviors.

You can go read the white paper on your own if you want, but there are specific behaviors that lead to better outcomes that these these individuals are practicing or or organizations. I I suspect they’re probably not individuals. They’re probably professional organizations of some sort.

Colin White: I bet they are too because can I make my draft pick off the same team?

Josh Sheluk: Go for it.

Colin White: The other reason you shouldn’t do this or an associated reason you shouldn’t do this is it is prone to manipulation.

Josh Sheluk: That was my number that was number two on my board as well.

Colin White: Oh, okay. Fair enough. Market manipulation. I think people misunderestimate what steps are taken in a regulated market to reduce market manipulation. Now we have a whole separate podcast on how the market really is manipulated and billion dollar trades being placed just before tweets on global events, yada yada.

But the major markets have checks and balances in there that keep the market manipulation at a level. The average consumer can get in there and and still participate in a little bit of of things with a reasonable degree of certainty that somebody’s not messing with them. My two favorite stories well, one of my my one of my favorite stories is the guy that placed a bet on the temperature at an airport and then showed up with a hairdryer. He found out where the sensor was and he manipulated the sensor at the airport. He won $35,000.

Josh Sheluk: I hadn’t heard that one.

Colin White: Yeah. Heard that one. Pretty special. That was classic. The other one was the member of the Navy SEAL team that took out the president of Venezuela.

He’s just been arrested because he placed a bet that it was gonna happen. Like like, how many circles of stupid did that have to cross? I think he was gonna get away with it. So you’re you’re dealing with something. This is where we can parse a little bit.

I don’t feel that what Siro has approved for use on the most simple platform is perhaps as manipulatable. I don’t if that’s great way to say it. But the predictive markets in general open up the idea that things can be manipulated. Well, you were telling me the story about Elon Musk who was reading off the list of bets on the the call that he was on.

Josh Sheluk: Let’s not trash Elon here.

Colin White: Oh, story. Sorry.

Josh Sheluk: It was the what one of the I don’t I don’t I don’t wanna say it was the CEO. Was one of the executives of Coinbase. So there are odds on is the executive is, are these terms gonna be used on this earnings release, on this earnings call? And the executive just went through the list and read them off one by one, one by one, one by one. And sure enough, anyone who bet on that got paid.

So we’ve seen all kinds of these scenarios. This isn’t insider trading where it happens, but it’s a fringe case because it’s a regulated market and highly, highly monitored. Maybe it happens more than we think, but you don’t hear too many of these big, big insider trading cases anymore. But we’ve heard, I don’t know, half dozen that we could probably pull off the top of our heads just in the last six months about insider trading type of behavior. The Venezuela one was a good one.

Not only did this one individual make a lot of money on that bet, the soldier that was going to pull the president out of Venezuela, But you could see that the odds spiked a couple hours before that event happened. When the truce, the ceasefire, I won’t call it a truce yet, the ceasefire was announced in Iran a couple weeks ago. The price of oil, bets on the price of oil went crazy shortly before that ceasefire was announced. That Coinbase one is another example. So clearly there’s insider info changing hands and things that are being used to manipulate those markets directly.

And I had the question, is this insider trading because this is kind of a non unregulated market, but this guy getting the soldier getting arrested for placing that bet on Maduro, I guess it’s it very clearly is insider trading and he can be arrested for it and thrown in jail for it.

Colin White: I wanna go read the details. I don’t know when he get arrested for it, whether he got arrested for being stupid and and releasing military information inappropriately or violating a blackout prior to an operation or something. Because if there’s 18 different things that could come up with that you probably could be arrested for. So it it may not rise. There may not be such a thing as insider trading on that particular platform.

But I also wanna parse at this moment that we’re actually talking about two relatively dramatically different predictive markets. So it’s what was recently been approved in Canada, is evil and we’ll get to. And then there’s the unwashed masses of pure evil that is actually illegal. Are you allowed to talk about it in Ontario, Josh? Because I believe polymarket says you’re not allowed to even access it in Ontario.

Josh Sheluk: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, it’s prohibited at the moment. But polymarket also got fined a million dollars plus in The US for basically launching this market without regulatory approval. So it’s towing all kinds of lines sort at the moment. You know, I don’t know.

I don’t actually know what’s legit and what’s anymore.

Colin White: The line has blurred. All right. So my draft pick was market manipulation, which was two on your board. You know, are you, do you, how deep is your board? Do you have a third?

Josh Sheluk: It’s pretty deep. I’ve done a lot of research and thinking into this, right? I got my whole draft room. I got all my scouts on this at the moment, but yeah, so my third, we kind of touched on it already, but you’re kind of being tricked into the idea that this is investing. It’s not investing, it’s gambling.

And I think there the Vengat diagram between investing and gambling, I think all actually has a lot of overlap, but the distinction for me is that in gambling, you have a negative expected value or you would expect to lose money over time probabilistically. And in investing, you have a positive expected value or you’d expect to make money over time probabilistically. Even if you’re a bad investor, you’re probably still gonna make money over time. Even if you’re a above average gambler, you’re probably still gonna lose money over time. Whether there’s a house edge with traditional gambling or some type of market like we have with poly marketing, Kelsey and those types where it’s not an explicit house edge.

It’s more of an implicit cost with with it. You’re you’re still expected to lose money over time. So that that is that’s why I would call this gambling, not investing, and that’s reason three for us. Reason two for me why you shouldn’t be doing this.

Colin White: Josh, you know, the guy that was on the board of directors for, I believe, was Pymco, who was a former federal reserve chair, and they did the math on how often he was able to predict interest rates.

Josh Sheluk: Barenaked.

Colin White: Barenaked Money, he was successful 55% of the time.

Josh Sheluk: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They, so this is PIMCO at an event they said, yeah, we have Ben Barenaked, not, not exactly on the board of directors, but comes out to their quarterly investments meeting that they do. At least he did at times, and they said, so he, former chair of the Federal Reserve, probably one of the most sophisticated interest rate predictors, if you wanna call that on the planet, because he’s been there, he’s been in the room of making those calls.

Yeah, 55 to 60% of the time, I think they said that he would get the direction right or the call right. So, if he’s only doing it 55 or 60% of the time, he’s he’s one of those I’ll call him a professional gambler that could make money at that type of bet. Like, that would be a profitable trading thing for him but not all the time and if he’s at 55%, you’re not at 55%. I’m speaking to everybody that’s listening to this.

Colin White: Yeah. I know predicting the future and and calling and investing that in my opinion, that’s that’s a fool’s game. Like predicting the future and expecting a specific outcome at a specific time. Just stop. I mean, then I’ll go back to 2020 when lots of people had a plan going into 2020.

You know, the future is unknowable. It’s unpredictable. And it that’s then that’s not gonna change. But do I get to pick now? Like, do I because because the mind again, I keep picking from the same team, like, another player on the same team.

Maybe another way of saying the same thing. This is evil and a pure unmitigated evil and a blight on society because it’s going to siphon money away from people are gonna treat this. They’re gonna take part of their investable money and they’re gonna do this with it thinking that it’s, you know, it’s just another kind of investing. So it’s gonna siphon money away from things where you’re actually gonna make money. I did I did I’ve done this math for clients a few different times where it’s like, how much do you guys spend a month on the lottery?

No. $100 whatever it’s like, $100 invested over your lifetime here’s what it’s gonna A $100 from the lottery over that same period of time. Let’s do the probability is zero. So, you know, that’s the cost of that drain on your disposable income. And they argue is like, well, but it gives us entertainment for for a brief moment.

We think we might be able to afford the lifestyle we want. Like, that is perhaps the fattest thing that has ever been said to me aloud. But it’s it’s it’s part of the human condition. And this is being coached in the idea that we need to give people this opportunity because people are SMRT smart and if they wanna do this, we should let them do it safely and make them do make sure they do it comfortably and make it very easy for them to do. And this last part is what runs it right into the ditch.

No, you shouldn’t make stupid things easier. I don’t think that that makes society a better place. So it sucks money away from other things that could either bring you more joy or give you a better financial outcome.

Josh Sheluk: Gonna make stupid things easier without taxing it aggressively. Maybe we should say that.

Colin White: No, because the syntax is gosh, you’re just trying to get me wound up. Not gonna rage quit this call.

Josh Sheluk: Okay. Good. Well, I got another draft pick here. This isn’t solving a problem for you. I don’t know what problem this is trying to solve, but I know there’s arguments out there that this is solving a problem or allowing you to hedge some part of your life.

Like, you know, if you have a mortgage and it’s a variable mortgage and you’re worried about interest rates going up, you probably shouldn’t be making a bet on on Wealthsimple Trade just to to avoid that financial problem. You don’t need this is is basically where I would land and there are better ways to address the concerns that you have in your life than trying to go and hedge your exposure through one of these contracts.

Colin White: Well, think part of your entertainment budget money you would spend to go to a movie or money you would spend entertaining yourself and go to the casino, whether they’re gonna give you free drinks. You know, to me that’s a better value. You know, if it’s if this is if this is left in the entertainment bucket somewhere like I guess at the crux of it here’s my problem. This should be an entertainment bucket. Like if you’re spending money on entertainment, can gambling be entertaining?

Alright. Fair enough. You know what? I I I I don’t have any kind of way to push back against that. Have at it if that’s your entertainment budget.

It grinds my gears when all of a sudden it becomes part of my investable assets. That that shouldn’t be at its core. And that’s where this goes into the ditch. And as soon as you have it on your financial accounting, your financial banking or investment account that’s on that platform and it’s approved by regulators, it blurs the line and I’m afraid people are going to take it out of their investable assets rather than out of their entertainment assets. I think we’re just bursting different parts of the same idea but one of the ways this gets manipulated and let’s be honest, Josh, we’re trying to scare people away.

Right? So I’m I’m just gonna try to paint the biggest, ugliest, scariest picture. The deep pockets problem because the actors in the marketplace that have deep pockets have the ability to make things as they maybe aren’t. Placing a bunch of wash trades, manipulating the markets and the lit markets, the markets we all participate in have certain guides and certain limitations that restrict that kind of activity. But you give unlimited assets to somebody who wants to go in and manipulate the bets on what temperature is gonna be in an airport.

I mean, doesn’t take a whole lot of money to have your pockets deep enough that you might be able to control that market. But the real bad actors in the world that want to make a quick buck and they have a lot of money to spend, deep pockets and that’s relative to what it is you’re trying to manipulate, but deep pockets can absolutely manipulate this market. And, you know, so that’s probably part of the 1% as well, like going back to that. So evil people with lots of money are manipulating you. Run away.

Be scared. Don’t give them your money.

Josh Sheluk: Lots of evil here.

Colin White: Was that was that scary enough, Josh?

Josh Sheluk: Yeah. Can can I run through a few other small ones that I had quickly? Oh. We’ll call these they’re they’re still on the board, but they’re going undrafted, but they’re they’re they’re gonna come in and they’re gonna make an impact in in this league at some point. So you’re being manipulated and coerced to make trades on these things.

So there’s a bit of gamification that’s going on that doesn’t work in your favor. That’s another reason why this is more like gambling. And hey, if that 1% statistic doesn’t deter you from this, maybe this 0.1% statistic will. 0.1% of users account for 43% of losses on this platform. If you wanna get really dark, if you end up in this small bucket, you could be in a very catastrophic scenario for yourself.

Colin White: You’re the reason everybody else is there. Everybody else trying to get a piece of you.

Josh Sheluk: That’s right, that’s right. Yeah. The movie rounders where they’re describing the poker table and say, if you’ve sat there for an hour and you don’t know who the fish is, you’re the fish. So if you’re there at poly market table or the Calci table, the Wellsimple table, and you don’t know who’s the sucker, you gotta look in the mirror.

Colin White: Yep, no, that’s a crushing, like that should be a soul crushing statistic for people like that that that should do it. But another mic these are all just microbes. Mean, there’s there’s there’s no upside here. It just occurs to me, Josh, and we’re doing this in stream of consciousness. Have we adequately set the table for what a poly market is?

Do we describe that well enough at the outset so that people are at this point understanding what we’re talking about? Should we take a second maybe just to set the bigger picture?

Josh Sheluk: Probably not. Yeah, you’re probably right. We probably haven’t done that. So just, I’ll try to describe it. These types of platforms generally rather than specifically, because they’re slightly different from one to the next, but I’ve referred to Polymarket and Kelsie because they’re the two, I think most prominent markets in North America at the very least.

And we were talking about Wealthsimple because they’re launching one in Canada. So essentially what these platforms allow you to do are to make a bet on the odds of a binary outcome. So as you said earlier, this is a yes, no outcome. Like will the Edmonton Oilers win the Stanley Cup? Yes or no.

And there’s odds on all these contracts, right? All these different, these different yes or no bet. So you could, you could have that same bet for every hockey team in the NHL. You could have, will Mark Carney win the next election? Yes or no?

Will the Liberal Party win the next election? Yes or no? And there are, it’s a market for these things. So some people will say yes and some people will say no. And the aggregate activity of all these yeses and all these nos determine, determines the payout for if you’re right.

Much in this the same way that supply and demand determines the price of a stock, and it moves every second of every day, depending on how those supply and demand features ebb and flow. These contracts kind of ebb and flow. Their prices ebb and flow in the same way. But again, you’re you’re basically making a bet on a yes or no outcome.

Colin White: Some of the bets like, you know, you you you mentioned like the or is Evan gonna win the Stanley Cup? But I’ve I’ve seen it get into the minutiae like, well, Connor McDavid show up at the rink before 06:00. You know, like the it it gets really finite on really, really, really odd things.

Josh Sheluk: Yep. Yeah. There there’s so the Canadian market, the Canadian approval has been somewhat limited more financial. Yep. Yes or no outcomes.

But if you look at some of these US platforms, they’re all over the map in terms of what you can wager on. Yes, it would be something like that. It could be how many characters in Conor McDavid’s tweet after they got eliminated by Anaheim Ducks last night, right? It could be as obscure as that. There are some, like how many times does Elon Musk tweet this week?

So again, things that can be highly manipulated, first of all, but also things that really nobody should be gambling or betting on at any point in their lives. So if you think, and some of the most ridiculous ones are like, maybe I shouldn’t say this on a podcast, will Jesus come come back to earth this year, right?

Colin White: Apparently that’s a

Josh Sheluk: big one. Yeah, and apparently the odds are not zero. So who am I to say, right? But yeah, there’s all kinds of these different wagers on all kinds of ridiculous things that you can make at any given point in time. And so that’s another reason why it’s quite problematic, I would say, to be on these platforms is you’re kind of encouraged to bet on things that not only are, I guess we’re talking about people that have better ability to predict than others, right?

Earlier gives you a higher chance of being successful on these platforms, I suppose. But these are things that nobody can predict with no degree of analysis or insights, unless you have some type of insider trading info.

Colin White: They don’t manipulate it.

Josh Sheluk: Yeah, it’s just crazy.

Colin White: And the idea that somehow we can make this safer or controlled by approving it and regulating decision like the decision is either not that we do it or we don’t do it. You know, it’s well, can we minimize the harm by making it harder to do, you know, rather than make it easier to do a minimum try to minimize the harm that way. So again, I think we’re gonna see this proliferate, you know, based on my conversations with some of the regulators. There’s quite a bit of pressure behind and a again, that false equivalent or that false decision, the false dichotomy that they’re kind of working with, they seem to be running with that. So I think it is gonna become more available.

And it just goes down to we just said it before, gamification, and it’s something else that’s that business model behind it is activity. Like they don’t care what you’re betting on as long as you’re betting, you know, and then that’s the business model behind it. So it’s something else where they’re gonna gamify and they’re gonna try to generate activity because they get paid on activity. The house gets paid on activity. So, you know, they’re gonna promote it and situated in such a way and use all of their tools at their disposal to try to manipulate people into doing this more.

I don’t know how long it’s gonna take for people to realize it’s hurting them if they ever will and pull back from it. But it’s for some people, this is gonna cause some real harm. And unlike, you you made the point earlier, Josh, and I’m gonna lean into it. Unlike, you know, smoking or drinking, which is bad for you, the government profits from that and ostensibly that funds our hospitals. Right?

So if you bet more, there’s not even a social upside to it. You’re not building any hospitals. The profits off of this kind of betting are not benefiting society. So you’re hurting yourself and society doesn’t get anything back that makes this worse. Is that a fair assessment?

Josh Sheluk: Yeah. Until we stop thinking of this as investing and start thinking about it as gambling. I think we’re gonna be in this weird spot.

Colin White: We should put a placeholder here and make sure we release this podcast every three to four months going forward, trying to get people’s attention to stop doing this as such. Is is that our play, Josh?

Josh Sheluk: Oh, we’re gonna say your gambling hotline or your polymarket or your CalSheet or your Wealthsimple hotline is our phone number coming up right now.

Colin White: You out

Josh Sheluk: of this vortex.

Colin White: You go. And when you we’ll set up a special number that you can call at any time, any day, and it’ll just scream at you. Stop what you’re doing and see if we can, you know, break the cycle for you.

Josh Sheluk: I I have a feeling that that’s not gonna be that effective.

Colin White: I’m just trying to make me feel better at this point, Josh. I don’t think we can solve this. I I feel like we’re pissing in the wind a little bit, but at least we’ll be on record at this time, at this place, and on on this day. We were we’ve come out and we’ve tried to inform people. All we can do.

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